Orenda's teachings are often contrarian to industry standards, textbooks and pool stores. In this episode, Jarred and Eric explain why that is. No apologies offered.
00:00 - Intro
01:51 - Not all of our advice conflicts with industry standards and texbooks. We just don't believe in the dogma of range chemistry.
02:56 - What is range chemistry?
04:31 - Water never read the textbook. Just like Jarred.
07:07 - Why are people more concerned with scale than etching?
08:39 - Aggressive water looks good. Just like Jarred.
16:08 - Being blind to the LSI is expensive, and it means you're going to fight your water to conform to ranges it doesn't want to conform to.
19:09 - Chasing pH is not profitable, nor is it beneficial for the pool.
21:07 - Be proactive and Rule Your Pool. Regardless of what the pool store's software says, because it's based on range chemistry. You can be focused on the LSI, which reigns supreme.
23:22 - Jarred's summary: we teach this way because it helps you treat water the way water wants to be treated.
23:50 - Eric's summary: Prescription without diagnosis is called malpractice. (Jarred's summary was better).
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69. Why Orenda's advice sometimes conflicts with industry standards, textbooks and pool stores
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[00:00:00] Eric Knight: Jarred, it is so good to have you back. This is episode 69 of the Rule Your Pool podcast. And to be honest with you, I was getting lonely. I just did the last series on how to use our products and it was quite boring, but we're after Memorial day now. And so now we have all the time in the world to do podcast episodes for all the seven fans of ours.
[00:00:20] Jarred Morgan: I'm happy to be back. Yeah. Seven's a good number I feel. After Memorial day also means that my kids are officially out of school. So if you get the random scream from the other room, or a kid running through, or even Blue the cat coming up here, it's cause he's trying to hide from the kids. So I'm sorry in advance, but get over it.
[00:00:43] Eric Knight: I, for one, am hoping that your cat, Blue, will walk on your keyboard again like one of those earlier episodes. Because that really made the episode. Well, anyways, this is episode 69. This is the Rule Your Pool podcast. And today, Jarred, since the last five or six weeks, you and I have been taking hotline calls every day and we get a lot of the same questions. Don't we?
[00:01:03] Jarred Morgan: Yes. What are we going to cover on this episode though?
[00:01:06] Eric Knight: This specific episode, as you can see from the extensive show notes-- the three bullet points that I made minutes ago-- we are going to be talking about why our advice at Orenda often is different or conflicts with industry standards, or it conflicts with a pool store, or textbooks.
[00:01:24] Jarred Morgan: I can't wait. And let's just get through this intro real quick so we can get to the meat and potatoes.
[00:01:28] Eric Knight: Let's do it.
Intro Music
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[00:01:51] Eric Knight: Okay Jarred, the first thing I want to say here is not all of our opinions conflict with textbook dogma. All right. Not everything conflicts against industry standards. But a lot of the people that have been calling us have been asking that question.
[00:02:06] "Why is your advice different? I went to the pool store or I went online. I read this forum. I saw this textbook." And how would you summarize, why are we different from what everybody sees?
[00:02:17] Jarred Morgan: Because we take a LSI-first approach and range chemistry second. So if you build your foundation, as we've talked about before on water chemistry that's not going to etch, it's not going to scale on the surfaces. That's what your LSI is determining, everybody. So you build it on that, and you keep your quote unquote range chemistry, you know, in those parameters, great. Cause you can achieve LSI balance and range chemistry.
[00:02:44] But in situations you're going to have to move outside of those ranges occasionally to keep it LSI-balanced, which is what we always teach. LSI first, range chemistry second.
[00:02:56] Eric Knight: Right. Well, perhaps we should explain range chemistry for those of you who have not listened to every single podcast and binged it... by the way, the seven of you who do, we love you so much. But by the way, Jarred, we might actually break double digits on subscribers after this episode, because this one's going to be fire.
[00:03:11] Jarred Morgan: Let's do it. I'm ready for 10. Yeah.
[00:03:13] Eric Knight: Like 10, maybe even 11. I don't want to get too ambitious on our fan base. But range chemistry refers to what the textbooks say. What should the pH be? 7.4 to 7.6 ideally. That's a range. 7.2 to 7.8, or maybe it's 7.2 to 7.6 for some books. Or 7.4 to 7.8 for other textbooks.
[00:03:32] Then you have manufacturers who will say, "well, you need it to be 7.4 to 7.6."
[00:03:36] That's just one example of a range. How about alkalinity? What does the textbook say, what should alkalinity be?
[00:03:41] Jarred Morgan: 80 to 120, ideally right on the money at 100. Let's just keep it in the middle, everybody.
[00:03:46] Eric Knight: Right. And yet we disagree with that, especially in season, but not out of season, right? Because we, again, we're looking at the LSI. Water temperature changes what your alkalinity should be. And so does your chlorine type.
[00:03:57] And then you got calcium hardness 200 to 400. Or maybe 150 to 350. Or some vinyl liner and fiberglass ...
[00:04:05] Jarred Morgan: Yeah. I was going to say the, a lot of people call me and say "my vinyl liner company told me I needed to maintain my calcium at 150 parts."
[00:04:13] Eric Knight: Oh, fiberglass companies say the same thing. "Oh, I can't have too much. I can't have over 200 ppm calcium." I'm like really? Cause you're in Michigan. That's absurd to us, because again, we're looking at the holistic balance of water. We're looking at what water cares about. Not what the textbooks say it should care about.
[00:04:31] Water never read the textbook. Kind of like Jarred here. Jarred never read the textbook either. Jarred can't read.
[00:04:39] Jarred Morgan: I skated through college just by, you know, watching the movies.
[00:04:44] Eric Knight: The YouTubes? Yep, the movie's. Good. We, you were you're onto something there, but, but the point is water never read the textbooks.
[00:04:52] So You have manufacturers telling you something. You have textbooks telling you something. You have software at pool stores telling you something. You have forums online telling you something. Who's right?
[00:05:02] You're basically told you need to impose your will upon water. But water is a physical element. It's going to push back because water only cares about equilibrium. It doesn't care about you. It doesn't care how long you've been doing this. And I say this, when I teach classes for Orenda, I always remind people physics always wins.
[00:05:23] You know, an airplane can beat gravity until it runs out of fuel. You can't beat gravity forever. It's physics. So what we're talking about here is what water actually wants is equilibrium. And the way that we measure that equilibrium is by aggregating all these factors together to tell you the saturation equilibrium of calcium carbonate in the given conditions.
[00:05:45] And that's different from calcium hardness. Calcium hardness, of course, is the amount of calcium carbonate in your water. But how saturated that is is measured using the LSI: the Langelier Saturation Index.
[00:05:57] Jarred Morgan: And on that note, people are fearful of calcium in their water. And that's where a lot of these recommendations from manufacturers and range chemistries come from.
[00:06:07] Because they're trying to make something that's easy to follow, easy to understand. It's for the masses. You know, keep it in this nice, neat box and just give everybody these parameters to follow. And there's reason behind it, but we're just saying, we feel like our industry, our audience, and whoever that may be, they should know why. They should have a better understanding why we're managing these chemistries this way. And leave it to yourself. If you want to keep things in your range chemistry narrative, because it's easy, fine. That's completely up to you. But if you want to stop fighting your water, as we've talked about before, this is our approach.
[00:06:46] Okay. And everybody's scared of calcium because they feel that if their calcium is at 400 or 500, they're going to get scale. And as we've talked about before, that is not the reason why you get scaled. The reason you have scale is because you're oversaturated because of the LSI.
[00:07:01] Eric Knight: Yeah, exactly. It's not the amount of calcium carbonate, it's how saturated it is in those conditions.
[00:07:07] So that brings me up to an interesting point. That was not in the extensive show notes. Why is everybody concerned about scale when they should be concerned about etching and damage to a fiberglass or vinyl liner pool? They seem to be thinking the opposite of what's most important. Because scale can be cleaned up, but etching and pitting and destroyed gelcoats and fading, vinyl liners? That's permanent damage. Why do you think that is?
[00:07:32] Jarred Morgan: Honestly, because I think that everybody just has the opposite approach that we do. They want to keep their range chemistry in these parameters of a 7.4 or 7.2 pH to get their chlorine as efficient as possible, everybody. But you know that that's, that's making your LSI super aggressive to do that.
[00:07:52] And I think it's a trade off of, "well, I'd rather keep my pH low, my chlorine strong, and not have algae." And that's just a side effect of what it is. It's not that you think about etching. Etching just happens over a period of time and then it shows up one day and then you can't put the cement back in.
[00:08:09] Eric Knight: I remember at our HOA, when I was a summer league swim coach. We were told "you have to replace this white coat", meaning the plaster, "every five years." That was just expected.
[00:08:20] And that's ridiculous now that I know better. Every five years? Well you're running an acid feeder, you're trying to maintain these pH's. No one's talking about cyanuric acid, completely throwing the "pH controlling your chlorine strength" out the window. No one's talking about that. But the truth is, to Jarred's point, aggressive water looks good.
[00:08:42] It looks really good. It looks clean. It looks clear. What's wrong with that? Well, it's destroying your pool. That's what's wrong with it. And I don't care if you have a fiberglass pool, a vinyl liner pool, or a plaster pool. It doesn't matter. If the water's hungry, it's going to eat. And it's going to get hangry until it's full.
[00:09:01] But this is an LSI lesson. I don't want to get too much into the weeds on that. But that's really the fundamental difference between our recommendations at Orenda and everybody else's. Everything is based on range chemistry that was standardized.
[00:09:14] And I think you had mentioned earlier, not in this podcast, but in another conversation we had, that it was oversimplified. It was based on convenience. These ranges were created to make it easy, but here's the problem. Do you really think you need to treat a pool the same way in Miami as you do in Montana? Or Michigan? Or Southern California? How about Tucson compared to Traverse City?
[00:09:39] We have totally different climates, totally different water temperature parameters, different rainfall, different evaporation rates. There's no way that these ranges are going to be acceptable in every single market. And we know that. The LSI proves that. So for instance, you're in Texas. Jarred, where do you keep your calcium hardness?
[00:09:58] Jarred Morgan: Where do I keep it? Or where should I keep...
[00:10:01] Eric Knight: On your... You know, what, where, well, okay. I didn't know it was different. Okay. The truth and lending here. You're in Texas. You have a pool.
[00:10:09] Jarred Morgan: My calcium is around 550, plus or minus.
[00:10:11] Eric Knight: Oh, the heresy! The heresy!
[00:10:13] Jarred Morgan: I'm meticulous about my pool. I pay attention to it all the time. And I can maintain it. Now I'm not saying that this is the way it needs to be done. I'm just saying it can be done this way. Right. It gets hot here in the summer. Eventually my pool, we're in the summer, it's going to get up to probably 91, 92 degree water temperature. That's pretty high with a high calcium level. I know I have to offset with a lower alkalinity and a lower pH to make it happy, right?
[00:10:40] Eric Knight: Hold on. How low is your alkalinity?
[00:10:43] Jarred Morgan: 50 or 60.
[00:10:45] Eric Knight: Oh my gosh. You're below the range there too. You are a heretic in both directions! Now here's my question: was it 50 or 60 all winter long?
[00:10:53] Jarred Morgan: No.
[00:10:53] Eric Knight: Or only in the summer?
[00:10:54] Jarred Morgan: It fluctuates by how much acid I'm adding, because that's going to knock my alkalinity down. But if I'm not really adding acid in the winter time, which I'm not, I know my calcium is at 550, I'm going to let my pH drift up to 7.8 or even 8.0 for that matter, which is not going to knock my alkalinity down.
[00:11:10] So I'm going to balance my LSI over the winter time, and I have no problems.
[00:11:13] Eric Knight: Yeah. As long as it's LSI balanced, that's all water cares about. Water never read the textbook. It cares about the LSI. So if you have 500 calcium and you have 50 alkalinity, and it works on the LSI, water's happy. And it's not going to attack your surface, regardless of the surface you have.
[00:11:29] The idea that you have to have different water chemistry for a plaster pool compared to a fiberglass or a vinyl liner pool is bunk.
[00:11:36] That is not true in our opinion, because we're caring about what water wants, not what the surface is. If you minimize the interaction between the water and the surface, meaning you saturate water properly so it cannot attack the surface, who cares what the surface is? It doesn't matter.
[00:11:53] Jarred Morgan: Speaking of range chemistry, there's one thing we do need to kind of touch on here to clarify. If you want to follow range chemistry with your sanitizer level, whether it's chlorine or bromine or whatever you decide to use. Yes, follow the rules. We don't agree with zero sanitizer. We want clean, safe water to swim in and enjoy. So just FYI, we just don't want crazy amounts of it. Right?
[00:12:17] Eric Knight: We're minimalists. We want to take things out. I think I talked about this in one of our earlier podcasts. They're all kind of blurring together at this point. But we want to take factors out of the equation. We want the simplest, purest water possible.
[00:12:31] I don't believe in a chlorine-free pool. I don't know that it's really possible. If there's any bather load, you need some residual sanitizer in the water. But the idea of using chlorine as a primary to handle everything is ridiculous.
[00:12:46] I see it all the time. I mean, customers call us, I see them on Facebook as well. Talking about things like the "SLAM method." Shock level and maintain. It comes from an online forum. Okay. Can it work? Yeah, but that's like giving penicillin to your child who has the sniffles. Why would you do that? So you're going to throw chlorine at a problem that chlorine is not designed to fix?
[00:13:10] Now a green pool? Sure, chlorine will kill whatever's in there. Assuming it's green because you have algae or tannins. But if you have copper and you didn't diagnose with say the white bucket test and figure out, "Hey, if I chlorinate this green water in a white bucket, does it get darker or does it clear up?"
[00:13:27] You know, you could diagnose before you prescribe. But then if you just throw a ton of chlorine into the pool and you don't actually handle the organics for instance, and you don't take them out of the equation. Or the phosphates, and you don't take them out of the equation, the problem's just going to come back.
[00:13:42] Jarred Morgan: No Just be mindful of it. And we don't want to throw a bunch of stuff into the pool. And at that point you don't know what worked. What fixed the problem? Okay, you spent $300. Well, which one of those bottles or powders or whatever you added to the pool, fixed it? What was the root of the problem?
[00:14:00] Eric Knight: Yeah, well, it helps to diagnose, like if you know the root of the problem, and we tend to know the root of most of these problems because we deal with them all the time. We can address the cause of the issue instead of throwing chlorine at everything. So that's another place that we're somewhat contrarian at Orenda. We disagree with a lot of the conventional wisdom out there.
[00:14:18] Now, Jarred, I want to shift gears here because we've talked about how the LSI anchors our philosophy in terms of water balance, but there's two disciplines to water chemistry. You know, there's balance, and then there's sanitization. And we've talked about both of them so far. But really where I think we differ in our recommendations compared to pool stores, textbooks, online forums, and all this other stuff, is we want to talk about preparing water for where it's going to be.
[00:14:42] It's one thing to balance your water today. It's one thing to get it in range chemistry today, and then you're acting all surprised a week from now when it's out of balance or it's out of these ranges because you didn't realize why the pH rose.
[00:14:54] These are the things that we can actually predict, because we know what water's going to do based on the readings that are given. That's what's so cool about this. So if you follow our philosophy and you use the Orenda app and you understand that CO2 is going to leave, you start paying more attention to factors like "what is your actual carbonate alkalinity?"
[00:15:14] What is your cyanuric acid to correct for that? What is your calcium hardness to offset it? Alkalinity is going to matter because that's, what's going to determine how high your pH can naturally rise due to CO2 loss. We've talked about this in previous episodes.
[00:15:28] Auto covers. Does your pool up an auto cover? That matters because it can suppress pH by keeping CO2 in. What type of chlorine are you using? Is it trichlor? That's acidic. Salt pool? That's going to raise the pH. We have a whole episode on that as well.
[00:15:42] All of these things matter so that we can predict where is your water chemistry going? And if we know that, then we can build a strategy based on the LSI to contain it so that you can keep your water balanced week after week. Unfortunately if you're focused on range chemistry, like what's printed out at the pool store, or online, or textbooks, whatever, you are blind to what is going to happen to that water.
[00:16:08] Jarred Morgan: You're not just blind, you're gonna fight it. And we do not want people fighting their water chemistry. We want you to understand, like Eric said where it's going to go, what is it going to do? Why is it going to do it? We're going to give you the "why something's going to happen" so that you can manage it accordingly and not fight it.
[00:16:27] If I know that I keep my pool specifically at a 50 or 60 alkalinity, I know that my pH is only going to get so high. I'm not too concerned about it. I know that my calcium is high enough to offset any aggressive nature that a low alkalinity might present. That's fine. I'm going to manage it that way. But as an industry, we get blinded by these ranges and we feel that we have to defend ourselves or have something that's defendable.
[00:16:52] If somebody else were to walk into your backyard or walk into your store and you give a prescription for what needs to happen to that water, well, you can say, "I kept it within ranges." That's the safe comfort answer, right? Well, as a service guy, I'm going to walk into, or not just me, anybody in the industry would walk into a backyard. The first thing that they're going to do is check the water chemistry and see how messed up it was.
[00:17:17] Eric Knight: Yeah. You're looking for a problem.
[00:17:18] Jarred Morgan: Absolutely. I'm here to sell my service. Well, if you were maintaining your water based on the LSI at a 50 or 60 alkalinity and a 500 parts calcium, and the service guy didn't know any better. Cross your fingers that you explained to the homeowner that you were maintaining, why you were doing it a certain way.
[00:17:34] And he comes in there and just starts railing on how the alkalinity is too low. Your calcium is too high. You need to drain some of that out, this, that, and the other. If I'm the homeowner, and I knew why, and that was, you know, being pitched to me, I would say "you're probably not my guy."
[00:17:49] So get ahead of it. Explain to your homeowners why you're maintaining the water a certain way and why these levels are gonna be different from quote-unquote "range chemistry, industry standards." It's more believable. It gives you credibility. This is what we want to promote as an industry.
[00:18:06] Eric Knight: Well, a lot of homeowners actually listen to this and we embed this podcast in our articles that are in the app. It's very easy to share episodes of this, so the homeowner can hear this from us. You don't have to explain everything.
[00:18:17] And I say a lot of homeowners, I mean, at least four of those seven subscribers, I believe are homeowners. But there's no way of knowing. There's no way of knowing Jarred, but I think, you know what I mean? I think.
[00:18:28] But you're absolutely right, because so many people are so stuck in this dogma of range chemistry that, "oh, something's out of line. That's it. That's the end... end of story. You're wrong. You're screwing up the pool."
[00:18:40] This happens on start-ups all the time. In reality, water only cares about the LSI. So if you are out of alignment, deliberately following the Orenda program, and you've got 60 alkalinity, like we told you to, because you've got 410 calcium to offset it appropriately. And your LSI balanced, containing pH, and somebody comes in and they criticize your strategy for that? Raise an eyebrow and say, " you sure about that? You want to put that in the LSI calculator and tell me where I'm wrong?"
[00:19:09] Jarred Morgan: Do you know how often we would add bicarb, fight the pH, I'm not immune to this. This happened. This is real life. Service background.. Maintaining pools. And I'd add bicarb all the time to get to that 100 alkalinity. Add more acid than I should have to quote unquote, "get it down" so that by the time I get back next week, it's not crazy high. But it turned out to be crazy high every time because it didn't matter.
[00:19:33] And just fighting the Seesaw game was exhausting.
[00:19:36] Eric Knight: And it's expensive.
[00:19:38] Jarred Morgan: Very expensive. So much bicarb, so much acid. And so much misunderstanding.
[00:19:43] Eric Knight: Yeah. You're bringing up a really good point and it's standing on a nerve for me, even though I wasn't in pool care myself. We talk to these people every day, Jarred. They're calling us. And our customers, we know our customers. This is a real pain point. And if you're listening to this, you're not alone. But chasing pH, thinking that you can possibly hold a 7.4 to 7.6 with 80 to 120 alkalinity? Newsflash: you can't. Without an acid feeder you can't.
[00:20:10] And isn't it curious that chemical controllers only have an acid or CO2 feeder that both lower pH? Where's the bicarb feeder? They don't have one. Where's the soda ash feeder? It doesn't exist.
[00:20:23] Jarred Morgan: Not just that. Anybody that has a pool with an acid feeder on it, I guarantee you their alkalinity is going to be about 50.
[00:20:31] Eric Knight: Or less. Because every time that acid feeds that alkalinity goes down, that acids neutralizing alkali. But the point is, we know what's going to happen. If you read those chemicals and you test them correctly and you document them, we can put together a picture and figure out, okay, here's where you're at. Here's what we're going to recommend. This is Orenda's recommendation so that you can predict where your water is going to go, so that you can actually contain it.
[00:20:58] You can't control pH, but you can contain it. Limit how high it goes with your carbonate alkalinity. Limit how low it goes by measuring and diluting your acid.
[00:21:07] These are the proactive steps it takes to maintain and actually Rule Your Pool. See that Jarred? I use the name of the podcast and...
[00:21:16] Jarred Morgan: I got it...
[00:21:16] Eric Knight: I'm feeling really good. I kind of came off the tip of my tongue and felt good. Okay. But anyway, So the pool store. And this is not a knock on pool stores because they're small businesses for the most part.
[00:21:27] Jarred Morgan: Again, they gotta make it convenient. They gotta make it convenient.
[00:21:30] Eric Knight: Yeah. A hundred percent, man, it's gotta be readable. So they get software. No problem. Software helps things out. You get a print-out with your chemistry readings. It's a very convenient service because you go in, you bring a water sample, and you get to read out. Well that software is based on range chemistry, isn't it Jarred?
[00:21:47] Jarred Morgan: Yes. You'll see it. It's right on there.
[00:21:49] Eric Knight: Yeah. It is telling you that you're out of alignment based on these ranges. But it's not factoring in your water temperature. Number one, you can't maintain a water temperature in a water sample. You drove it to the store. It's not the same temperature that was in your pool.
[00:22:02] So you have to know your water temperature. Because your strategy in March or April, when you're opening your pool is very different from July. And it's very different in December. If you still, if you're like in a Southern California and you don't winterize that water could be in the 40s or the 50s.
[00:22:19] That's a totally different water chemistry than 85 degree water, Fahrenheit. Totally different. So by looking at this software, it's telling you, "oh, you're out of alignment on alkalinity. You need to buy some alkalinity down, or pH down." And oh, now, you know, next week, because you have been trying to maintain the 7.4 to 7.6 repeatedly, you now have too low alkalinity, so you need to buy some alkalinity up.
[00:22:44] And it's not that this is a bad system necessarily. It's that it's based upon a flawed foundation of range chemistry. That's the issue. It's based upon ranges that are not necessarily applicable to your pool.
[00:22:59] Jarred Morgan: How much do you want to fight with your pool?
[00:23:01] Eric Knight: Yeah, exactly! What's your price tolerance? You want to spend a ton on bicarb, acid, and chlorine? Have at it. Do it the traditional way. The Orenda way is different. We want to be proactive. We don't want chemical conflicts. We don't want longterm byproducts. We want minimalism. We want you to put as little in your pool as possible and take as much out of it. So you have the purest water you can do.
[00:23:22] Jarred Morgan: Like I said, we don't bring this up to throw any business or any situation under the bus. It's really just to bring light to, Hey, we have a different approach to maintaining water. We feel that it's the proper way to do it because it results in less fighting with your water. And it's based in science and an understanding of physics and how these things work that yes, I can maintain levels out of range and still be perfectly balanced and sanitary. So why would I not do that?
[00:23:50] Eric Knight: Right. Absolutely. And I think that's a good ending note for this episode. I think you summarized it very well. A prescription without a diagnosis is called malpractice. So if you are just trying to make things work based on ranges that may not apply to you at that time of the year, you need to know the holistic number.
[00:24:12] You need to look at everything in your water chemistry that factors into the LSI. Not just pH, not just chlorine.
[00:24:19] If you do that, you'll understand why our philosophy is growing. It just works. So anyway, if you're willing to hear us out, we've got all of this information published. We've got plenty of other episodes of this podcast you can go back and listen to. And future ones as well that have not come out yet.
[00:24:36] But, uh, I think that's pretty much all I wanted to talk about in this one. This is why Orenda advice often conflicts with industry standards, textbooks, and pool stores. Jarred, anything else you want to add?
[00:24:49] Jarred Morgan: No, I think we've got a pretty good explanation here.
[00:24:53] Eric Knight: Nailed it. I'm telling you our subscribers are definitely get hit double digits after this one. We got this. We got this man.
[00:25:01] All right. This has been episode 69 of the Rule Your Pool podcast. I'm Eric Knight. This has been Jarred, so good to have him back and it's so good to have you back. Thank you so much for listening and we hope to hear you in the next one.
[00:25:12] Take care, everyone.