If you get the folks at Orenda talking about pH, they could go for hours. Fortunately, this 40ish-minute-episode boils pH and how it affects pool chemistry down into three main points: The role that carbon dioxide plays in controlling the pH of water, the factors that both lower and raise pH, and how to manage pH in a proactive way so that you're not chasing it. Many pool operators struggle with how to manage pH. Eric and Jarred are here to make it easy.
00:00 - Intro
02:22 - How Carbon Dioxide and pH are related
04:55 - What Causes a High pH in a Swimming Pool
05:06 - What is Henry's Law?
08:59 - What are the factors that make pH go down?
10:10 - pH chart with common pool chemicals listed
15:48 - Controlling vs Containing pH
16:22 - Chart demonstrating CYA and pH relationship.
17:44 - pH and scale formation
18:42 - What makes pH go up?
23:18 - Henry's Law continued
27:24 - How to proactively manage pH
29:36 - Demonstration of proactive pH management using the Orenda App
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Connect with Orenda Technologies:
Eric [00:00:01] Hi, everybody, welcome back to The Rule Your Pool Podcast and the last two episodes, we have done an overview of total alkalinity and alkalinity in general and we touched on pH. But in this episode, Episode three, we are going to go deeper into pH. I'm Eric Knight, your host. And with me, my co-host, Jared Morgan.
Jarred [00:00:23] Pleasure to be here.
Eric [00:00:24] Yes. Thank you for being here. You can't just wave to the camera because most people are just gonna be listening to this. You've got to remember, this is a podcast, Jared.
Jarred [00:00:32] That's right. And we're technically not here. We actually are in separate places, so.
Eric [00:00:37] Fair enough. Fair enough. I believe you just call people digitally through the phone nowadays.
Eric [00:00:42] [00:00:42]Anyway, there are three takeaways about pH that I want to drive into, [3.9s] because if you've got Jared and me talking about pH, we could talk for hours. It impacts just about everything in pool chemistry and nobody wants that. I especially don't want to do that to you. So let's just stick with three main takeaways. The first one is we're gonna cover the role that carbon dioxide plays in controlling the pH of water. Most people don't know carbon dioxide is even involved. But it's it's very involved. So [00:01:12]the role of CO2 in pH. [1.8s] That's the first takeaway. The second one is we're going to cover [00:01:17]different factors that both lower and raise pH [3.3s] from chemicals to physics to all sorts of fun stuff. And the final takeaway is we're going to talk about [00:01:27]how to manage pH in a proactive way [2.5s] so that you're not chasing it, because most pool operators, they really struggle with chemistry. And what they're really struggling against is pH. But when you understand what we're going to teach you in today's episode, you'll understand why that's so predictable and it's preventable. So without further ado, this is episode three of The Rule Your Pool podcast, Understanding pH.
INTRO [00:01:57] Welcome to Rule Your Pool, the podcast by Orenda that explains and simplifies pool chemistry so that anybody, regardless of experience, can understand. I'm your host, Eric Knight, bringing clarity to these subjects so that you can bring clarity to your water. You're ready to rule your pool. Let's go.
Eric [00:02:19] All right. So most people don't realize that [00:02:22]the amount of carbon dioxide in your water actually determines the pH of your water. [4.3s] I know. I certainly didn't. Jarred, did you ever know that?
Jarred [00:02:31] I did not know that.
Eric [00:02:32] Well, what we think about it, because the pH is the power of Hydrogen or potenz Hydrogen. Nobody says anything about carbon dioxide, but it's actually directly correlated with carbon dioxide. So. What happens is when you want to lower the pH Jared, you want to lower the pH. What do you add to the pool?
Jarred [00:02:51] Muriatic acid? But do we want to understand how did that carbon dioxide get there in the first place?
Eric [00:02:59] Sure. Do you want to explain or do you want me to explain?
Jarred [00:03:02] Well, you're really good at explaining stuff. I'm not gonna lie.
Eric [00:03:05] I'm the secretary of explaining things that Orenda. I guess so. Carbon dioxide is in your water naturally, but there's not necessarily a whole lot of it. And we're going to cover this in a little bit more depth. But right now, let's talk about how CO2 impacts your pH. Basically, the more CO2 that you have dissolved in your water, the lower your pH. So the higher your CO2, the lower your pH. And then as you lose CO2 to the air, your pH goes up. So let's think, Jared, you've got a pool. There are two main ways you can lower the pH, right. You can add acid. And you can inject CO2. Well, that one's pretty straightforward, right? You inject CO2, obviously, you're just putting CO2 straight in the water, which increases the amount of CO2, therefore the pH goes down. So it makes sense, right?
Jarred [00:03:59] Yes, correct. Somewhat. But you basically said was there's always a balance in the atmosphere and the water. So, carbon dioxide is naturally occurring in the water to some extent. And it's always in balance. So it's it's trading and gaining all the time, correct?
Eric [00:04:14] Well, I haven't said that yet. So I think you're just foreshadowing a little bit for the audience. But yes, that's exactly true. There is a law that, by the way, those of you listening at home, if you take nothing away from this episode except understanding that the more CO2, the lower your pH, just understanding that alone is going to help you control pH. There's a law called Henry's Law of the Solubility of Gases. And if you go to the Orenda site, or if you have the Orenda App, O R E N D A, it's free in the App Store, Google Play and you go to articles. There are several articles in here. One of them is called, [00:04:55]"What Causes a High pH in a Swimming Pool?" [2.3s] You should read that article. That's what I have on my screen right now. That's what I'm looking at because we have some charts and some reference points in there.
Eric [00:05:06] [00:05:06]Henry's law is a law of physics that states any gas that is dissolved in water will eventually try to equalize with that same gas in the air above that water. [11.4s] So let's say you had a, you know, a half bottle of water and you close the lid. OK. You now have a contained area. And eventually what's going to happen is you're going to have an equalization of different gases. Some gases will leave the water. Some will go back into the water. You recognize this when you shake up a bottle of soda, right? You know how it builds up all that pressure? Because the carbon dioxide leaves the soda. You're just forcing the reaction faster because it was sealed. It was an equilibrium when you shook it. You agitated it and it accelerated the loss of CO2. That's why it built up so much pressure that could just explode. Well, you unstabilized its equilibrium. Well, let's talk about an outdoor pool instead of containing it in a bottle, that's airtight. You're now trying to equalize your pool with the atmosphere that we all share. Jarred, you're in Texas. I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina. We're breathing the same atmosphere. Granted, we have local factors that are different. But by and large, the percentage of carbon dioxide in both of our air is almost identical. And a lot of people think we have a lot of CO2 in the atmosphere. We actually don't. It's less than one percent. I think it's depending on the source. It's about 80 percent nitrogen and then like 17 to 19 percent oxygen. And then you've got carbon dioxide at less than one percent. And a few other things like argon and whatever else. So it's actually a very, very small percentage. So when you have water that has alkalinity in it - and most water does - as we discussed in the last episode, you have carbonate as that alkalinity. But acid lowers your alkalinity. And as a consequence of lowering it, it actually lowers the pH, because what it's doing is it's I like to say it's burning through alkalinity. But what it's really doing is it's bringing hydrogens on and it's taking alkalinity, let's say, bicarbonate HCO3. It's throwing a hydrogen on it. And it's now becoming carbonic acid, which is no longer alkalinity. So your alkalinity goes down. And because carbonic acid is an acid, it actually lowers the pH of your water. Carbonic acid, as we learned in the last episode, is just dissolved CO2. It's CO2, bonded with H2O, H2C03. That's going to be the most in depth chemistry in this whole lessoned. So if you can get past that [00:07:49]acid lowers alkalinity by converting alkalinity down into carbonic acid, which is dissolved CO2, that's where the CO2 comes from. [9.2s] It come it's stored in alkalinity basically, and carbonic acid. Did I lose you there, Jared, or does it make sense?
Jarred [00:08:06] It's a little confusing. You got into some chemistry. It sounds like it's just the transfer of hydrogen is basically what you're boiling it down to.
Eric [00:08:13] You are basically boiling alkalinity down into carbonic acid. And that's what lowers your pH. And because carbonic acid is dissolved CO2, your CO2 goes up. That is [00:08:26]why the more CO2 you have, the lower your pH. [2.6s] Now, again, you can inject CO2 and skip all that process, but it's not going to lower your alkalinity. It's just going to lower the pH.
Jarred [00:08:38] Which in some cases, Good job.
Eric [00:08:41] Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So the first takeaway from this is understanding that the role of CO2 determines your pH. The more you have, the lower your pH, the less you have the higher pH period. No exceptions, none that we know of anyway. So what we have now think about is our second takeaway. [00:08:59]What are the factors that make pH go up and go down? [2.7s] Well, if we know that the amount of CO2 determines the pH, all we have to think about is what adds CO2 to the water and what takes it away. So, Jared, you flip a coin in your mind. Do you want to talk about what lowers pH first or what raises it?
Jarred [00:09:17] Actually, let's go lowering because that's what we're always trying to do. We're trying to lower the age.
Eric [00:09:21] Well, we're always trying to lower the pH because it it raises naturally great the things that lower the price. Like we said, we add carbon dioxide. So, of course, acid does that. As I just explained, injecting CO2 does that. But there are some other things that do. How about the type of chlorine you use? If you use stabilize three-inch tabs of Trichlor, the pH of that chlorine is actually pretty acidic and by pretty acidic, I mean, it's 10000 times roughly more acidic. It's just below three. It's like 2.8, 2.9 PH.
Jarred [00:09:53] Do you have that chart that gives the types of chemicals we use and on the pH scale?
Eric [00:09:58] I sure do. Thought you would never ask.
Jarred [00:10:02] That be the easiest thing to go through here for those that are watching. This is.
Eric [00:10:09] Here we are. OK.
Eric [00:10:10] [00:10:10]So if you are watching this on YouTube. I've got this chart here that it kind of looks like a rainbow xylophone of a 0 to 14 pH scale. [7.3s] Now, this is not to scale because everything on here is logarithmic. Every whole number is ten times greater or less than the next. And when you look at this, seven is perfectly neutral water. So the lower your pH, the more acidic your water is and the higher your pH, the more basic or alkaline it is. And by the way, just that word alkaline is what confuses so many people that confuse alkalinity and pH. It's just because basic is the same thing as alkaline. And underneath this chart, I have very common pool chemicals that we use not only as chlorine, but as pH adjusters. So way down there to the left below one. We have muriatic acid. That's the most common acid use in the pool business. And then at about 2.8, we have Trichlor. Well, that's a chlorine. So if you use that, it's going to be constantly trying to lower the pH of your pool because it is an acid and a pretty strong acid at that. I mean, it's nothing compared to muriatic, but it's still pretty strong acid.
Jarred [00:11:23] That's why if anybody's ever had a floater in their pool in there, it's knocked over. Kid plays with it and the tabs fall out onto the plaster finish. It's called or really any service, for that matter.
Eric [00:11:33] It etches -
Jarred [00:11:34] You get those nice three-inch rings there on the plaster. It's because it is acidic.
[00:11:40] Oh, well, it's the same thing when you have a floater and a vinyl liner pool that somehow just floats right over by the wall, and that one spot on the wall gets a lot lighter and it fades and it loses color. Chlorine didn't bleach that. The low pH of Trichlor lowered the LSI there and it was hungry for calcium. So it was aggressive and it had actually stole pigment from your wall. But this chart basically shows. What chemicals go up and down and you've got to remember that every whole number is 10 times the next number and that compounds. That means it's logarithmic. So 7 to 6, 10 times more acidic. 7 to 5 pH is a hundred times because it's 10 times 10. 7 to 4 is a thousand. 7 to 3 is ten thousand, so just over ten thousand is Trichlor. Ten thousand times more acidic. Now let's compare on the other end two very common chemicals for pH and alkalinity adjustment, sodium bicarb and soda ash. You'd be surprised at how many people actually confuse these things, Jarred. You've gotten calls on it before. Well, if sodium bicarb is 8.3 To 8.6 And soda ash is 11.3 to 11.8. Let's just call it 8 to 11, right. Count it up 8 to 9 is 10. 8 to 10 is 1000. 8 to 11 is 1,000. A thousand to twelve hundred times more concentrated. Soda ash is that much more concentrated than bicarb. So it takes very little soda ash to make the same pH impact as it would take several pounds of sodium bicarb.
Jarred [00:13:22] I know where we are. It's sodium bicarb is more commonly used where we're predominantly a gunite or a plaster market in Texas where we are. And really a lot of the southern, you know, Florida, Arizona, California, Southern California, a lot of plaster pools. So they might not be as familiar with soda ash, even though it's a common chemical - it's commonly used. A lot of the vinyl liner and fiberglass pools are very accustomed to using soda ash because they're constantly fighting the lower pH, especially those pools used Trichlor tablets. That's why it's always wanting to pull that pH down.
Eric [00:14:01] Well, it has no mechanism for bringing the pH up. Other than the natural loss of CO2. And again, we'll get into that. But that's that's a good example. A Trichlor pool in a fiberglass or vinyl liner pool doesn't have a cement finish that it can etch.
Jarred [00:14:17] So you mentioned cement finish, though, so right there, it's calcium hydroxide. That's what we're commonly referring to in a plaster or cement pool. Correct. And you can see right there, it has a high pH, right?
Eric [00:14:29] Well, calcium hydroxide. One of the biggest problems. You face it, too, because you get the phone calls just like I do. The biggest problem that we found in the pool business is people overcorrecting with acid abusing acid. They're putting too much in or they're putting it in straight and it goes to the bottom. It etches and you lose this 12.6 pH calcium hydroxide. Well, of course, that's going to rebound. That's going to raise the pH very rapidly. And this idea that, oh, man, my pH keeps rising every week instead of lowering it to 7.4 This week, I'm going to lower to 7.2 Just cause I don't want it to be 8.2 When I get back. Well that actually makes it go up to 8.2 faster because you overcorrect, it's like a rubber band. You stretch the rubber band more and it's going to come back sooner. So it's a flawed idea to think that you can just set the baseline lower and expect it to rise at the same rate. That's not how pH works.
Jarred [00:15:20] I was guilty of doing the same thing. And the one that gets the worst rap is I have salt pool. I'm treating it on weekly maintenance, therefore, I know for a fact that my pH when I come back the following week is going to be very high. Yeah. So, therefore, I'm going to drop that pH as low as I can on that Monday that I'm there and hoping that I come back the following Monday and it's not over 8.0 - which it always was. It's really a losing battle-.
Eric [00:15:45] Exactly. Well, it is. It's futile because [00:15:48]what they're trying to do is they're trying to control the pH. In reality, they need to be containing it. [4.7s]
Jarred [00:15:52] [00:15:52]But the main reason that I was controlling the pH in a maintenance pool was two things. One was keeping my chlorine as efficient as possible [8.5s] and two: prevent scale.
Eric [00:16:04] OK, so great, great, great. Two things. Which one do you want me to address first?
Jarred [00:16:10] Let's go. Chlorine efficiency. Because that's what I want. I want really efficient chlorine.
Eric [00:16:15] Everybody wants really efficient chlorine. OK. So that actually we'll see if it's in this article. Real quick. [00:16:22]This is the last chart that I'm going to show [1.3s] because again, Jarred, this is a podcast. So people are listening to this. But you say that the lower the pH, this is about chlorine deficiency, and that would be true if you didn't have cyanuric acid in your water. Cyanuric acid completely changes the game. There's a lot of research that's been out from numerous sources, and I know Dr. Stan Pickens wrote something. Richard Falk has written a lot of things. There's no shortage of research that shows the percentage of strong hypochlorous acid, which is what we're really talking about here. That actually plummets when you have cyanuric acid in your water. And that's no longer really a factor. I mean, it matters somewhat, but it really only matters that much higher pHs above what we're gonna be dealing with in pools. So lowering the pH for chlorine efficiency in a stabilized pool is kind of useless because you can have virtually the same strength of chlorine at eight pH that you do at seven. So that the argument that we have to have pH-controlled for the strength of chlorine: out the window for a cyanuric acid pool.
Jarred [00:17:28] Now, commercial pools are a different ballgame, but, yeah, you're right.
Eric [00:17:31] Indoor commercial pools are different.
Jarred [00:17:33] Correct -
Eric [00:17:33] But indoor commercial pools almost always have automation too.
Jarred [00:17:37] Yep.
Eric [00:17:37] OK. And indoor pools don't lose CO2 quite as fast, which is going to bring us to our next takeaway.
Eric [00:17:44] [00:17:44]So the second thing that you said was scale formation, scale formation is a function of the LSI, not just the pH, [4.5s] the pH has to get over a certain threshold. Or the LSI has to get over a certain threshold of .3+. By the way, those of you listening at home, if you have the Orenda app, that number will turn purple. The LSI will turn purple if you're in a scale forming condition. So if it's not purple, you don't have scale yet. You might have it in your salt cell where it's hotter. You might have it in your heater because temperature like locally you have an LSI violation. But by and large, you're not going to really have a scale problem if your number is green or yellow. So. The factors that bring the pH down is just finding ways to add CO2 into the water. So that's basically using an acidic type of chlorine like Trichlor or adding acid or carbon dioxide. Those are pretty straightforward.
Eric [00:18:42] [00:18:42]Let's talk about how we make the pH go up. [1.9s] All we have to do is remove CO2. Jared, what is one thing that can get CO2 out of the water.
Jarred [00:18:52] If we're just adding it to go up that's gonna be your bicarb. Bicarb and soda ash.
Eric [00:18:57] OK. So adding those chemicals, correct, that sodium bicarbonate, their CO2 in that product. But it has not been converted down to the carbonic acid yet, but it will raise the pH because the pHs of those products are above seven. So sodium bicarb will slightly raise the pH. Actually, not that much, but it will definitely raise the alkalinity. Soda ash will definitely raise the pH so you can add it with chemicals. You could also use a salt-chlorine generator. Yes, salt pools are chlorine pools. You can also use liquid chlorine or cal-hypo. So all the non-stabilized chlorine is liquid, cal-hypo, salt. They're alkaline. They're basic. So they will have the ability to, if not permanently, temporarily, at least, raise your pH, because once they oxidize and sanitize it, it can become kind of a wash. But what were you gonna say -
Jarred [00:19:53] That's what I was going to bring up. I was gonna say, 'not to get into the weeds, but it is said that they will neutralize eventually once they oxidize.' But in that moment when they're added, they do impact the pH.
Eric [00:20:05] Yes. And it is temporary. But Jared, you and I live in the weeds, man. We're just trying to simplify this chemistry for others. So we've got to make sure we don't get drawn back down into them.
Jarred [00:20:16] I didn't want to, but I just wanna make sure that we clarify. Did we know that it eventually neutralizes? But you know, when it's initially added. Yes. It does have an impact on the pH.
Eric [00:20:26] Absolutely. I saw a video on one of the many Facebook groups of pool professionals where a guy was pouring liquid chlorine in front of a return inlet and it was clouding up when he was pouring it in. Yeah, well, that makes perfect sense because the pH of liquid chlorine is 13 to 13.5. That's really, really high. I mean, that's almost a million times or maybe it's just over a million times more basic than neutral water. So what happens is right there in that moment, you have an LSI violation. Because the pH is so high, it's precipitating calcium carbonate very briefly. And that's what the cloudiness is. Of course, once it dilutes out, you know, no problem. So it goes away, but it does cloud up and turns a little white. That's a local LSI violation, which we will discuss in the future episodes where we cover the LSI. What else reduces carbon dioxide in a pool?
Jarred [00:21:22] Features - water features.
Eric [00:21:23] Yes. Yes. Aeration. Splashing. Anything that agitates water that can get gas to release and leave the water is going to raise the pH. So Waterfalls, hot tub jets, spill over spas, vanishing edges - like those infinity pools, those beautiful, endless pools. Those all agitate the water. And the pH will climb faster in those pools because carbon dioxide is pushed out of the water faster. If you have a commercial pool and you have a swim team, they're splashing and kicking in those big swim workouts that agitates a lot of water and you can lose CO2 faster.
Eric [00:22:02] There's another thing that reduces CO2 and takes it out of solution, but it stays in the pool. And it's algae. This is something we don't often think about. Algae consumes CO2. And when it consumes it, it pulls it into its cell wall, much like it consumes phosphates. It holds it in its cell wall and so you can't test it. Like, you know, you could do a phosphate test in a green pool and the number is going to be maybe zero or very low. But, you know, there's clearly phosphate in the water. The same thing with CO2. The pH is going to be exorbitantly high because the cell walls of the algae, which is basically a plant that's consumed carbon dioxide. So it's out of solution, but yet it's still in the pool. It's kind of weird.
Jarred [00:22:46] Well, I know we give visuals on when algae needs to survive, and nobody really thinks about that. Whenever we talk about sunlight, phosphorus, nitrogen, carbon dioxide, all these things come into play. So that is absolutely something that impacts the pH of the water.
Eric [00:23:04] Oh, yeah. And it's way higher than the natural ceiling. And when we get to Henry's law and explain, remember, we covered a little bit earlier of how gases try to equalize with the atmosphere above it. [00:23:18]There is a ceiling there now changes depending on your carbonate alkalinity. [3.8s] But it's approximately 8.2 something.
Jarred [00:23:25] You use the word ceiling. That's not a hard ceiling, correct? Because I know I've been to pools that have been way over 8.2.
Eric [00:23:31] Well, there are always exceptions, right? It is a hard ceiling for natural carbon dioxide loss. But if it and you know, this is great. You know, if your pH goes over that natural ceiling, that it was forced. So if you etch the pool and you take 12.6 pH calcium hydroxide, that can absolutely blow past that natural ceiling. You artificially forced it. You forced your pH above that ceiling. Algae is the same thing. It's not that it's equalizing with the atmosphere anymore. The carbon dioxide, that is, it's also being consumed by algae. So, of course, it's going to go higher than that natural ceiling. Anything that forces more CO2 out of solution than the natural equilibrium with the air above it is going to have a pH above that natural ceiling.
Jarred [00:24:19] So that's where Salt's cells come into play because they're constantly producing sodium hypochlorite at a high pH and therefore driving the pH up-
Eric [00:24:30] Yeah -
Jarred [00:24:30] Consistently.
Eric [00:24:32] Not to nitpicked it. Not technically sodium hypochlorite, though a lot of people think. It's actually pure chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide. It's very similar. But yeah, it does have a high pH. That's a byproduct. And it will raise the pH of your pool for sure, but it doesn't always raise it over the ceiling. And one thing that we have to think about with Henry's law is [00:24:51]the closer your water and air come to equilibrium, at least with CO2, the closer they get to that equilibrium point, the slower the transfer of gas. [9.9s] So if you're ceiling, let's just say for easy math, it's 8.2. Very common - it's gonna be 8.2-something in almost every pool in America. So while it may take, let's say, a second, and these are not accurate numbers, so if you're a scientist listening to this, I'm just simplifying this. My apologies in advance. Let's say it takes like a second for it naturally to rise from 7.1 to 7.2. Well, then it would take maybe 10 seconds to go from 7.2 to 7.3. And one hundred seconds, which is a minute forty to get to 7.4. By the time you get to like 7.9 To 8.0, you're talking days. So it doesn't always get to the ceiling. It can get there faster if you have a high pH chlorine like a salt-chlorine generator, that's forcing it up every day of the week. But it doesn't necessarily get over that threshold because Henry's law works both ways. If you have a deficit like a carbon dioxide deficit, CO2 will actually push back into the water. Now, granted, we don't really have to deal with this in swimming pools because there's not enough pressure to do that very often. But if you were to force it up, get rid of, say, all the algae, CO2 could push its way back in theoretically. But we're not in a contained space. We're not in a soda bottle. So it doesn't really happen very fast.
Jarred [00:26:22] Just to play devil's advocate here. [00:26:23]Do you think that covered pools have any difference in pressure? [3.5s]
Eric [00:26:28] Absolutely. If they're not mesh, if they're solid covers like those automated covers. That's a great question. The pH does not rise nearly as much. And then it stops because the CO2 has no place to escape, even if you had, like, a solar blanket on it. It holds the CO2 in so that the pH doesn't rise as much. That's a great question. Mesh covers, of course, they allow the transfer of gas. So that's a non-issue for them. But yeah, I mean, that's really what we're talking about with pH, you're talking about the loss of CO2 or the increase of CO2. That's what determines the pH of your water. So we know that depending on the chlorine that you use or, you know, letting the natural off-gassing of CO2 occur, we now have this. As you clarified, we have a ceiling. Now, that's just the physical ceiling, it can be forced over.
Eric [00:27:22] But knowing that ceiling, [00:27:24]this brings us into our third takeaway, we can now manage pH in a proactive way instead of chasing it. [6.8s] Don't try to control pH. That's a losing strategy. Instead, just contain it. The analogy I like to give is to imagine you're trying to chase down a rabbit in an open field. A bunny rabbit. You're not going to do it on foot. I mean, they're too fast. But what if you could contain that rabbit into a bedroom? You've got a pretty good chance now. But then again, if you have it contained in a bedroom, why do you even need to grab it? Just let it roam around. You've contained it. That rabbit is the pH, too often in pool chemistry. We hear from people, and by the way, field experience ourselves. If you just try to keep the pH 7.4 to 7.6, it's going to bounce, isn't it, Jared? You're not doing anything wrong by letting it rise naturally. You are doing something wrong if you're fighting pH and it's bouncing like crazy because you're overcorrecting it and you're not following the physics of what the water actually wants to do. That ceiling is actually where water is in true equilibrium with the air above it.
Jarred [00:28:42] I'd say you-.
Eric [00:28:42] That's where pH wants to be.
Jarred [00:28:45] I'd say you can do it. You can take a pH down to 7.4, 7.5. But don't give it that extra pour to give it the safe feeling.
Eric [00:28:54] Yeah, agreed. But the strategy here is not to fight pH or not even to control it. If I want to set it to 7.5, I'm going to measure that dose, I'm going to dilute it in a bucket of water and I'm going to get it in so it doesn't sink to the bottom and etch and release calcium hydroxide. If I set it to 7.5 every week and I know over the course of seven days, you know, this takes some practice because you can take a few weeks for you to figure out the rate it rises. But I know that pH is going to be 8.0 Or 8.1 Or 7.9, whatever it is, every single week. It becomes very, very predictable and therefore controllable.
Jarred [00:29:27] But if you do that week after week in your pool, still looks good with no scale. You've got a winning strategy.
Eric [00:29:33] You do. Because you're containing pH. You can have. [00:29:36]So basically, if you if you're going to look at the Orenda app pull out your app, Jared. If you're going to look at the Orenda app on a salt pool that you know is going to rise, [10.7s] the name of the game is to avoid etching and to avoid scale - .3 to + .3 on the LSI is totally fine. So on a salt pool, rather than trying to get the LSI to maintain in the green, you can go a little bit into the yellow. So here's what I want you to do: put in the parameters and on the left side. I want you to have an a 7.5. And on the right side. An 8.0. For pH. Now, what parameters allow you to be yellow at 7.5? Not red. And on the right side. Still green, not purple. That is your containment strategy for a saltwater pool, for liquid chlorine pool. You can be a little bit tighter, you can be closer to zero - you might even be able to be green because it's a temporary rise in pH.
Jarred [00:30:41] Which I took it from, say, two hundred and twenty calcium. So here's what I have. Just so we know, I have a 7.5 PH on my current level with a 220 calcium and 80 alkalinity, a 40 stabilizer at 3600 salt TDS level. OK. OK, that's a -.44 On my LSI. Very reasonable -
Eric [00:31:03] Let's let me put this on the screen for those of you watching on YouTube. Jared, I want you to read those numbers again. What's your pH on the left?
Jarred [00:31:12] 80 temperature ,1 chlorine, 7.5 pH.
Eric [00:31:16] Got it.
Jarred [00:31:17] 220 calcium. 80 alkalinity. 40 stabilizer. 3600 TDS
Eric [00:31:25] OK. Now on the left side. I'm (-0.4), in the red. Did I do something wrong?
Jarred [00:31:34] Nope. You are right on the money here. And then on the right side, I'm going to take my pH up to 8.0 because I know my salt pool's going to be 8.0 for sure.
Eric [00:31:42] OK.
Jarred [00:31:42] It's green. That's good.
Eric [00:31:43] Yep, that is good. [00:31:45] But but my current size not good. So all I'm going to do is take my calcium level up to 310 or 320 sorry, 320.
Eric [00:31:54] OK. I even did 330. Now look at that. Those of you watching at home, play around with this, if you have a salt pool, it's very simple on the Orenda app, set your parameters on the left and this is going to tell you exactly how low you can lower your pH.
Jarred [00:32:10] But that is, you know, counterintuitive.
Eric [00:32:12] Oh, I. Oh, my gosh. It's the opposite of everyone. I mean, everyone says, oh, you've got to have 7.4 to 7.6. Guess what? You can't do it. That's an unrealistic expectation. But this strategy here, we know the pH is going to rise over time. Look at this. We're not going to etch and we're not going to scale. That's a great strategy. Now, here's an even better one. Jared, I'm going to raise the calcium up to more like four hundred and twenty, maybe four. Let's go for 30. But I'm gonna lower my alkalinity down to 70. Now I have even more stability. And if I'm not quite comfortable, maybe I'll go to 7.6 Instead of 7.5. And I'm still not going to scale. Assuming I get up to eight.
Jarred [00:32:59] You're getting closer to how I manage my phone now.
Eric [00:33:01] OK. And then let's drop it down to 60 alkalinity. This is how you manage your pool, isn't it?
Jarred [00:33:06] Get it up to 500. My TDS obviously isn't that high, but it's -
Eric [00:33:10] Oh because you're not a salt pool?
Jarred [00:33:12] Yeah, it's probably 1200.
Eric [00:33:15] Oh, it's. Well it's at least 500 plus your alkalinity. So let's say it's 1500 just for easy math and it's going to be on a pattern every week. It's going to go up at the exact same rate, assuming you didn't overcorrect your chemicals and you measured them properly. That is containing, that is proactive. Do not try to fight pH. Don't do it. It's a waste of time, it's a waste of chemicals. And there's gonna be a casualty, and it's called your pool surface or your pool equipment.
Eric [00:33:41] [00:33:41]So I just want to explain to everybody who's actually watching this on YouTube. You don't actually use the calculator this way. [6.1s] We'd actually use it backwards to make the adjustment. I'm just showing it left to right here to show how it rises. So actually, let's do it backwards. Let's go. 7.9 On the left. And we're going to lower it to 7.5 Or maybe even 7.4. That way, when we get dosage, it tells us, hey, all we need this week is just 21 ounces of muriatic acid. How cool is that?
Eric [00:34:12] I know we went down into the weeds. This was a conversational episode and I liked it. I hope this helps you. If you have any more questions about anything. Water chemistry, Orenda is here for you. You can contact us directly through the app. You can request a training. And of course, we have Orenda Academy and the four pillars which you can just sign up for free. It's an online video training thing for homeowners and pool professionals alike. Anybody can take it for free. And that's I mean, Jarred, that's several hours of education where you learn the basics. And then, I mean, four pillars is way beyond the basics of pool chemistry. Everything we cover here is covered in four pillars, pretty much.
Jarred [00:34:52] And we're happy to answer questions if you leave a comment. We usually respond within a day and happy to help.
Eric [00:34:57] Yeah. So if you're watching this on YouTube and you have any questions, comment on the video below, or you can check out the hyperlinks below and see what the articles that we referenced, all the information is available on our app. It's just called Orenda. We're trying to be as accessible as possible. So if you're a homeowner, you're looking for help. We can hopefully help you out. I'm Eric Knight, the host of Rule Your Pool. And this has been my co-host, Jared Morgan. Jared, you have any final remarks before we sign off here?
Jarred [00:35:25] Now, I look forward to getting a couple more episodes in the can so that we can cover topics. And if anybody has any suggested topics, happy to listen.
Eric [00:35:33] Yeah, just send them our way. [00:35:34]So recap. And then we're out: [2.2s] the amount of CO2 determines your pH, the more CO2, the lower your pH, the less CO2, the higher. There is a ceiling. And it's going to be determined on your carbonate alkalinity. But we have a chart on our Web site. It's about 8.2 something if your pH goes over that. It was forced. Either by etching or algae or something. Something took more CO2 out of the water than it naturally should. And the proper way to manage this is to accept it. This is physics. It's supposed to rise up to the ceiling. That's normal. And that's OK. You have to have a strategy that allows you to be close to that ceiling and to correct it every week so that the pH naturally rises while you're gone. And you don't helicopter parent your pool if you do all these things and you can really master pH and Alkalinity in your pool. You are really I mean, you have a great head start into truly ruling your pool. And that's what this podcast is all about. So thank you so much for your time, everybody. And this has been episode three, understanding pH on Rule Your Pool. Take care.
OUTRO [00:36:42] Thank you for listening to Rule Your Pool, a podcast by Orenda Technologies. For more information on what we discussed in this week's episode. Check the links in the description or visit www.orendateech.com. I hope you find this show valuable enough that you tap that subscribe button and share it with your friends. You can also like us on Facebook and social media. With our help, you'll be able to rule your pool without over-treating of the chemicals wasting money. I'll see you next episode.
