This episode and the next three are an overview of chemistry considerations and Orenda recommendations for how to manage pool chemistry based on its primary chlorine. Today, Eric and Jarred are back in the rumor mines, chipping away at salt pools. A common misconception is that a salt pool doesn't use chlorine. But, salt pools are chlorine pools. The chlorine is just generated on-site. These types of pools have different chemistry needs from pools that rely on bleach or cal hypo for sanitation. Our hosts will explain every grain. BE AWARE! Different types of chlorine are volatile if exposed to each other. They can cause fires and literally explode. Never store two different types of chlorine in the same enclosed area. When handling chlorine, always follow manufacturer instructions and exercise caution.
00:00 - Intro
01:50 - Salt pools are chlorine pools
03:06 - Chlorine handling disclaimer
04:25 - Salt chlorine generation byproducts
13:37 - How CYA affects saltwater pools
15:27 - Managing salt pools in the offseason
17:48 - Acid tip
18:22 - Final thoughts
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RYP_EP17.mp3
ERIC [00:00:00] Welcome back, everybody, to Episode 17 of The Rule Your Pool podcast. And I'm Eric Knight with Orenda and with me, as always, Jared Morgan. Thanks for being here.
JARRED [00:00:09] I'm happy to be here. Sorry you had to go at it alone on the last episode, but.
ERIC [00:00:13] - that's OK. You've got kids. I get it.
JARRED [00:00:15] Yeah, I have a feeling you handled it just fine.
ERIC [00:00:17] Well, all we did was a little bit of introduction for the next four episodes. This one and three more. After this. We're going to actually just try to be brief and go through the basics of four primary types of chlorine. And I thought about doing bromine, but it's just not common enough. If if you do have a bromine pool, contact us directly info at Orendatech.com or reach out on Facebook. But we're going to four episodes here. And [00:00:42]this one is about saltwater pools. [1.1s] And [00:00:44]the reason we want to do this is because so many questions come in. Oh, well, I have a salt pool or I have a liquid chlorine pool or I have a trichlor pool. And a lot of the chemistry parameters have to actually be different depending on your primary chlorine, [12.3s] because there are chemistry consequences. So I just wanted to cover that those kind of topics. And this episode's about salt water pool chemistry. Do you have anything to add before we get into it, Jared?
JARRED [00:01:08] No, I think it's one of those things where I'm happy to shed some light on. And we you know, like I said, a lot of questions on I have a salt pool or I have a chlorine pool that let's let's clarify.
ERIC [00:01:17] All right, let's do it. Episode 17 of The Rule Your Pool podcast. Here we go.
[00:01:27] [INTRO NARRATION AND MUSIC]
ERIC [00:01:48] OK, so first things first, Jared. [00:01:50]Salt pools are chlorine pools. [2.9s] Did you know that?
JARRED [00:01:55] I'm shocked.
ERIC [00:01:57] Color me shocked, too, because it is amazing to me how long and how I mean, how long is that rumor been around that people still think, oh, I want a salt pool, I don't want a chlorine pool? Well, [00:02:08]salt pools are chlorine pools because salt chlorine generator systems generate chlorine from salt water using electrolysis. [8.7s]
JARRED [00:02:17] I will say it's not you know, I don't want to make anybody feel silly for thinking that because quite honestly, it's it's the way it's sold in a lot of places
ERIC [00:02:24] Oh, yeah. It's branding.
JARRED [00:02:25] And it's just people feel that a salt pool is softer and has some other things that happen and that it's not necessarily chlorine or anything like that. But like you said, in reality, it's a chlorine pool. We're still managing chemistry and it's things we have to take into account. So if you're out there, I don't blame you for thinking I saw pool is different.
ERIC [00:02:46] No, we don't either. We really blame more of the the original people who started that rumor because it is a convincing one. You know, the pool feels different. It tastes different. It tastes like salt water. So I've spent enough time in both pools to know they do feel different, but they are chlorine pools. Now, one thing I want to say before we get into this episode in the next three, and [00:03:06]we have to say be aware, because when we talk about chlorine, especially different types of chlorine, you have to be aware that different types of chlorine do not play nice together. They are very volatile. If they're stored or come into contact with each other, they can cause fires. They can literally explode like Trichlor and call hypo can explode. Never put cal hypo in a trichlor feed or vice versa. Never mix liquid chlorine with any other type, just rule of thumb, keep them separate in an open air space so that they're well ventilated. [30.8s]
JARRED [00:03:38] [00:03:38]Let's just go ahead and say please follow the manufacturer's storage and handling guidelines. [4.2s]
ERIC [00:03:43] Yeah, always use caution. So salt pools are a little bit unique because salt pools generate their chlorine and it's not like you're bringing that chemical into the backyard. Now, most salt pools actually do supplement. Pool service professionals will supplement a salt pool with something like a granular cal hypo shock as needed because they can only produce chlorine a certain rate. So the takeaways from this episode are, like we already said, salt pools are chlorine pools. But I want to talk about the byproducts of [00:04:11]what a what a chlorine generator actually creates and how it impacts chemistry [5.3s] and then the strategies on [00:04:18]how to handle it in season and out of season. [1.7s] So, Jerry, do you have anything before we get into that?
JARRED [00:04:23] Nope. Let's jump in.
ERIC [00:04:24] OK, so the by products that are I mean, there's several byproducts, but the byproducts that really matter on a salt pool are a higher pH because of sodium hydroxide, and, well, I guess I guess the high pH is the thing that impacts things the most, but the high pH is coming from the creation of sodium hydroxide and then, of course, it creates chlorine as well. And you have to be careful about this because it raises pH more so than just natural loss of carbon dioxide. And we talk about containing a lot in our Orenda program and a bunch of blogs. And it's not to say that a salt pool is going to always get you over the natural pH ceiling thanks to Henry's law. It's going to get you there much faster. So you have to be aware that [00:05:14]the net of using a salt chlorine system is going to be a much higher pH when the system is running [6.1s] the most salt pools. Their systems are not running 24/7. At least they shouldn't be. Jarred, what do you think they should be running at that?
JARRED [00:05:31] Honestly, it depends on where you're located, how much it's being used, how hot is it? A lot of factors that go in there, but obviously we say try and dial that down as much as you possibly can. [00:05:42]If you can run a salt system at 30 or 50 percent, get after it. [5.1s] And when we say 50 percent, that means it's running 50 percent of the time it's programed to be on. So not that you, you know, turn your system on. Let's say your program runs from nine a.m. to five p.m., you know, in your filtration system. What that saying is that it's not running for what does that eight hours was every 10 minutes.
ERIC [00:06:11] So if you're at 50 percent every 10 minutes, it's running for five and it's off for five.
JARRED [00:06:15] Right, exactly. Not it's running for the first four hours of the day and then shutting off, not how it works. Its spacing that on time, if you want to call it that, for 50 percent of the time that is programed to be on.
ERIC [00:06:26] Now, especially with the I guess, the growth or the necessity of variable speed pumps that give you more circulation throughout the night because they either ramp down, they don't necessarily shut off completely. So when a circulation pump is not circulating, a salt cell should not be running. Correct?
JARRED [00:06:43] I wouldn't I'd have to look into that. But I don't think that's accurate. I think if the system is on and running a flow which triggers and it's producing,.
ERIC [00:06:54] Well, that's what I mean. So if the pump shuts off, that flow switch isn't triggered. So.
JARRED [00:06:59] Correct. If the system's off - I thought you were saying in low speed.
ERIC [00:07:01] Yeah, no, no, no. At low speed they can. What I'm saying is if the pump is off, so it should definitely not be running and [00:07:06]that can actually be really bad if it is running without circulation. [2.6s] Correct. We've actually seen pipes explode. So not to scare you if you're listening to that. But the main the main byproduct here that you have to think about is the rising pH. So let's think of our chemistry strategy here. You do have a rapidly rising when the system is running in season. And there's kind of two ways I want to look at this. Let's talk about in season when the water temperature is warm and let's say above 60 degrees Fahrenheit water temperature, and then there's out of season, which is below 60 degrees. Nobody's swimming in that unless it's a polar plunge. So the strategy [00:07:42]that we have found that works the best to prevent calcium scale flaking, which is a big problem, is to have a lower alkalinity level. [8.6s] Now, we say target 50 to 70 parts per million. And I know that's lower than the textbook 80 to 120. But we don't just say lower your alkalinity to 50, 70. There's more to it. You can't just do that and expect success. That is one piece of the puzzle. Lowering your alkalinity to 50 to 70 must be coupled with raising your calcium hardness to replace that LSI deficit. Now, Jared, you don't have a salt pool, but you do something similar with your pool, right?
JARRED [00:08:20] I do. Yeah, I do supplement mine with cal hypo and bleach. And then I also raise the calcium level and maintain I don't maintain my alkalinity at all. Honestly, it just naturally sits at about 60 plus or minus, you know, and that's where it stays. But it's funny you bring this this up specifically because yesterday I had a call from a homeowner in East Texas that said, hey, I found your your blog last year. And, you know, I was fighting my pool all this time. And I lowered my alkalinity down and I raised my calcium over three hundred. And I'm not fighting my system anymore. And he has a salt pool. And he said, yeah, I'm not fighting it anymore. And it's great. He said, I just wish I had found this before because he said because every time I go into a store or somewhere, you know, they're always telling me that I'm out of balance and then I'm this or that. And he just kind of, you know, told me that I just kind of shake my head now because I've experienced this and it's awesome. And I was like, hey, well, we appreciate it. And that's that's the goal.
ERIC [00:09:19] Service companies with [00:09:20]hundreds and hundreds of pools on service have contacted us as well in a lot of them being salt pools. And they had the calcium flake problem and they thought they had too much calcium hardness in their water. In reality, they had too much alkalinity. [10.6s] And so there pH was getting too high, which precipitated calcium. And it it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. So. You actually want lower alkalinity, higher calcium, even though you're trying to get rid of calcium flakes. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but what you're really doing is allowing for LSI balance because by lowering your alkalinity, you lower the pH ceiling. And that's what you're really trying to accomplish here. The other thing that you have to do with this, so we already said lower alkalinity, higher calcium hardness. We're talking with the exception of when the water is maybe 90 degrees or so, you want at least 300 calcium hardness on a salt pool. Now, there are exceptions. Like I said, if your water superhot, the 250 might be enough. But realistically, we're looking at 300 plus.
JARRED [00:10:15] It's all LSI balance punched in our calculator and see what you need to be, right?
ERIC [00:10:20] Exactly right. The other aspect is do not lower your pH below seven point six in some cases, according to the calculator. Don't lower below seven point seven. Ideally, what you're trying to do is build a containment strategy with your pH. And that containment strategy depends on the type of chlorine. So on a salt pool, you're going to try to go as deep into the yellow as you can without getting that LSI value red. The reason for that is the rise is so rapidly. You know, you leave and come back the next week. And if you're a homeowner listening to this, just understand that we're at this moment, I'm talking to service professionals that visit once a week. The pH is going to rise within a matter of a day or so and you'll be back in the green, meaning LSI balanced once again. But what you're really trying to avoid is going too far. And that's the rebound. If you put too much acid in because you don't dose it right or you don't pour it right and it goes straight to the bottom and it etches, all bets are off. So this has to be a delicate thing where you don't abuse acid and use less than you might think. Once again, that's counterintuitive. But if you can contain your, say, between seven, six or seven seven, let it naturally rise up to its ceiling. And you have low enough alkalinity that that ceiling is not too high. You're not going to get scale or you're not going to get very much. So, Jared, what are your thoughts on that?
JARRED [00:11:42] You don't want to do the the rebound because and it is very hard for a service professional to get away from that mentality. And, you know, people need to understand that we're we're trying to not just we just in general, people are trying to become better educated and change habits that have been ingrained into how we do things for 10, 20, 30 years, obviously. And so this is not something that's going to be, you know, easily adopted or recognized as, oh, yeah, this works. So but as everybody gets tries it and it works and they keep going, that's how things change. And that's what really what we're trying to do here is get the mentality of range chemistry, you know, kind of over on the sideline. Not that you kick it out the window, but it's there. But it's not the most important piece of what we're dealing with.
ERIC [00:12:33] Especially when you have a rapidly rising pH. That's the game changer, because you have basically two circumstances. You have what the chemistry is when you lower the bar to where you want it and where the is going to be when you come back, you have to be LSI compliant in both of those situations. And that is a hard thing to do if you're not measuring things right.
JARRED [00:12:52] Well, I think a lot of this comes from which I'm pretty sure we're going to touch on and we can do it right here. The service professional is there once a week. Right. And the name of the game is to provide clean, safe water for your homeowners to swim in throughout that week while they're not there. And a lot of the notion of chlorine efficiency drives around pH. I need a seven four so that I can get the most efficient chlorine possible in this water so that it keeps it safe and algae away and all these other things. And that's really what we're trying to manage as a service professional. But you know, and I know once cyanuric acids introduced into the water, that theory kind of diminishes its importance.
ERIC [00:13:34] Absolutely. So that is the last actual takeaway. I've got one more before we talk about CYA, but let's cover the CYA thing now. Jarrad's exactly right. If you have cyanuric acid in your pool, the no longer really controls the strength of your chlorine. The amount of cyanuric acid in a ratio with free chlorine is what determines the strength. So you could have stopwatch and have roughly the same chlorine strength. The seven point if there's CYA in the pool, which leads me to my last point, which is just keep your CYA at 50 parts per million or less, try not to get over it. And I know some manufacturers have said, oh, you need 60 to 80 depending on the manufacturer for these salt pools. That was a misnomer based on a few conventional wisdom points that were made. It's not a knock on any of the manufacturers, but kudos to them. They are changing that because it was a misunderstanding of what CYA actually did for the chlorinators. You don't need as much as you might think and use it to your advantage to protect it from sunlight and to allow you to have a higher pH. Without losing chlorine strength, all that's a benefit of CYA, but too much of it is over stabilization and that's bad for any type of chlorine. And we'll touch on a couple of videos from now for sure.
JARRED [00:14:46] It is a stance that we as a company, we generally like roughly 30 parts per million in the pool.
ERIC [00:14:53] Yeah, but you can get up to 50. But after that, it becomes irresponsible and at some point you're over stabilized. So just a rule of thumb under 50 is good. 30 is about ideal,.
JARRED [00:15:03] Which it's a lot easier to dial in your stabilizer levels with a salt pool because you're not constantly adding stabilizer with tabs. So it's a lot easier to control. And it's a lot it's something you should be managing with a small pool.
ERIC [00:15:19] Yeah, it's a non stabilized chlorine. So I guess the last thing is let's talk about how to strategize. What do you do out of season? You know, if you have a year round pool, that's great. But [00:15:27]when the water gets below sixty degrees Fahrenheit or so, depending on the manufacturer, these chlorine generator systems don't really work anymore. [6.9s] So you either need to switch to a liquid chlorine if you're chlorinating at all. You might be winterizing, I don't know. But you do need more alkalinity in the off season because now you don't have that same pH circumstance that the salt cell created. So you're still going to have the higher calcium. And again, if you're in a winterizing area like the Northeast or the Midwest, you're going to be raising calcium, too. But you do need more alkalinity to get through the wintertime because the temperature will be dropping so much that you have to maintain LSI balance. And since you're not running the salt system, those circumstances change. And of course, it's very easy to undo that, so to speak, in the spring.
JARRED [00:16:14] Well, that that also depends on the type of surface which we may touch on. But, you know, if you have a plaster or gunite with a plaster pool, your pH is going to drift higher than it would be, say, a vinyl and or a fiberglass pool. So, you know, we're where we are in Texas, you know, that is going to drift closer to eight point zero than it is. It's not going to drift down, really. So we don't really need to mess with our alkalinity in the wintertime because the pH is going to drift up and we just set the pH seven-eight, seven-nine and let it be. And it's perfectly LSI balanced and there's nothing to worry about. But if you are in the areas where there is a vinyl liner or fiberglass pool, the pH is going to tend to drift down, yes. You will have to probably bring that alkalinity up or bring that pH up or combination of both to correct the LSI because of the water temperature.
ERIC [00:17:04] Well, the pH would not be drifting down unless acid is being fed in or trichlor. So -
JARRED [00:17:09] In some form or fashion. Yeah.
ERIC [00:17:11] Now. Rainwater can bring the pH down. So if it's getting diluted with rain. Absolutely. But generally speaking pH is almost always going to raise unless you have a solid cover on it, which is another topic for another day. So I just kind of want to wrap this up if you have any final comments, but just touch points. Salt pools are chlorine pools. You need lower alkalinity when you're operating them in season with a higher calcium hardness, probably over three hundred. And you need to stop lowering your below seven point six or so. It might be seven point seven. Use the Orenda app. Let the pH naturally rise before making a small - before making a small correction to that. [00:17:48]When in doubt use less acid than you might think. [2.7s] Let me repeat that. When in doubt use less acid than you might think. That's the opposite for something like calcium when in doubt, round up with calcium hardness, round down with acid, especially when you're trying to figure this out on a pool that you've never done this strategy with, you'll you'll be able to dial things in a lot better. If you're not overcorrecting, if you're under correcting and you think you need a little bit more, that's a much easier transition than trying to fix what you just did the week before. Jarred, final thoughts?
JARRED [00:18:22] Final thoughts are salt systems and salt cells and salt pools. You need to understand there's a little higher upfront cost to have a salt cell. So you're paying for it. And then there's ongoing maintenance for salt cells that have to be accounted for when you're making these decisions on what type of sanitizer you're using for your pool or what what you have. And the operation is is relying obviously on a good clean filter. So you're passing clean water through this salt cell and it's not getting clogged up and that you're doing the proper maintenance on keeping the cell clean and clear. And part of that strategy is, like I said, keeping your chemicals in balance and doing like what we're saying, we're running a little lower alkalinity and keeping your calcium where it needs to be. So your water is LSI balanced. But none of that, like I said, skips the fact that there still is ongoing maintenance and there's still an upfront cost for these things. So please take that into consideration while you're you're listening to this or if you're thinking about a salt pool, there are things that, you know, aren't necessarily going to be in in the sales book to get you to do that. And then, like I said, salt. You are adding salt to this pool. That's it's a requirement for it to work. That's how it produces the chlorine. That's what it uses, and salt has other unintended consequences for maintenance and pools in general, uh, you know, so that's something that it should also be considered. So on salt cells and salt pools, that's where we stand.
ERIC [00:19:52] Yeah. I mean, I was just using the Orenda app with a customer yesterday on one of these Zoom calls and he was telling me about a salt pool and we made perfect chemistry on the LSI calculator, leaving the TDRS alone at 100, you know, the default on the Orenda app. And I said, OK, now this is a salt pool, right? Where do you keep your salt level? 3200 parts per million. OK, we raised it up and just raising it up to 3200 made the LSI go from zero point zero to red. So I guess it was that plus the 40 parts per million CYA.
JARRED [00:20:26] So hold on This is important because I get this question a lot. "What number do I input?"
ERIC [00:20:29] Yeah, right off the bat. A salt pool is more aggressive than a neutral pool or not a neutral one - what am I saying - a salt pool is more aggressive than a different type of pool because of the high TDS. OK, so when you're using the Orenda app, it says salt/TDS. The number you're supposed to put in there is the TDS. We have salt in there for two reasons. Number one, it is a dosing calculator that will tell you how much salt you need if you're adding salt. That's why we have the word salt in there. The second reason is people often forget about salt when they're thinking about TDS. So it's TDS, including salt. But if you don't know your TDS, take your salt and add your calcium and alkalinity and cyanuric acid to it. And that's going to get you somewhat close. But hopefully you're able to measure TDS not to get too far into the weeds, but I think we've covered salt pool strategy pretty well. What do you think, Jared?
JARRED [00:21:23] I think we're I think we're covered here. If you have any other questions or you need to know more information, reach out. And we'd be happy to help out any way that we can call us. Email reach out on social media.
ERIC [00:21:33] mmhmm easy to find us. Well, thanks, Jared. This has been episode 17 of Rule Your Pool. We covered salt water pool chemistry, and in the next episode we're going to talk about liquid chlorine. Very exciting. We'll see you next time, everyone. Thanks.
[00:21:46] OUTRO NARRATION AND MUSIC